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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 10:04:23 GMT
Post by hoffa_nagila on Dec 31, 2020 10:04:23 GMT
Thank you RP.
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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 10:26:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by respiratoryproblems on Dec 31, 2020 10:26:15 GMT
It’s worth adding that the whole thing is more a symbolic act that will permanently ruin the UK’s global position. While it’s easy to say that the practical changes amount to a change in trading conditions, the cultural and global impact of the U.K. realigning itself as a place that wants to return to the ‘good old days’ (hence the bleating about having blue passports again) and making it harder for anyone overseas from coming here (unless they’re rich, or looking for a tax haven) is going to make the whole country a laughing stock.
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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 10:58:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Potsie Hoofman on Dec 31, 2020 10:58:58 GMT
I appreciate that, RP. Thanks for explaining it. It seems to me it fits in with what we've been dealing with in the US for a few years now. Isolationism. We're better than you, too many non-whites speaking those languages, blah, blah, blah. You're right. It is shameful, as it appears this is all coming from a place of hate.
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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 11:26:33 GMT
Post by Chicken in Black on Dec 31, 2020 11:26:33 GMT
Politically, there was the rise of a British right-wing party, the UKIP, which was headed by Nigel Farage. The UKIP didn't amount to much seats in elections, but it took votes away from the Tories and, due to the voting system in UK, could determine whether they would win or lose.. In 2010, there was a general election that had the Labour (with then Prime Minister Gordon Brown) and the Tories almost tied. The centrist and pro-European party, the Liberal Democrats, was expected to form a coalition with Labour, but the Tories made them a better offer, and so David Cameron became Prime Minister. Cameron is the embodiment of a politician without any backbone and, with the help of tabloids, blamed Europe for anything that went wrong domestically. That also reignited some fire that had died down after Thatcher left, as her successors (John Major, Tony Blair and Brown) were either europhiles or cautious enough not to play the populist card. Cameron vetoed any European initiative unless he could negotiate an exception for Britain, and specific clauses. And he mostly succeeded, as it took place at a time Merkel's Germany needed an ally and couldn't rely very much on France (our president at the time, François Hollande, tended to underestimate the power play at hand in the European Union and, for some reason, assumed he had to form a block with Italy and Spain). As a result, the European ambition took the form of financial and trade deals (Greece going nearly bankrupt didn't help things), plus accepting any Eastern Europe country that would apply, which also made the EU a convenient bogeyman for any populist movement. So, around 2015, Cameron promised that if the Tories won the coming general election, there would be a referendum about Britain being part of the European Union, mirroring a previous referendum that had taken place a couple of years after it had joined the European Economic Community. The referendum was supposed to be a formality, but the promise was enough to contain the rise of the UKIP. Lib Dems collapsed, Labour was a disappointment, so Cameron remained PM. At this point, Cameron would push Brussels for even more concessions by pushing the "We may leave" card, but didn't get much results in return.
The campaign during the referendum was quite shameless, even if no-one really expected Leave to win. Nigel Farage actually went to bed early on the night of the election, assuming that Remain had won. The Tories were divided, the Labour put Jeremy Corbyn, a guy with very mixed views on Europe and a huge stick in his ass, in charge. Upper class twit of 1989 Boris Johnson (he may want to look like a "man of the people" or Churchill reborn, but he's as Oxbridge as you can get, and sometimes brags about speaking Ancient Greek fluently), previously a Brussels correspondant for the Telegraph, who created singlehandedly the narrative of Brussels pushing for ridiculous norms on bananas and everything else, then a mayor for London, hesitated for a while (he actually prepared two letters) before picking Leave, as it would grant him more benefits in the long run. So, the Remain side is quite shapeless (it didn't help that Cameron would push for Remain even as he put all the blame on Brussels), the Leave side makes a series of false claims about the NHS, and gets help from online targeted campaigning by Cambridge Analytica (the firm which fraudulently collected personal information on Facebook then helped Leave to pass and Trump to be elected, with money coming from Robert Mercer, a huge douchebag billionaire).
So, Leave wins, Cameron resigns. Johnson, who had bet on replacing Cameron a couple of years later, isn't ready for prime minister time, and the Tories pick as Cameron's replacement Theresa May, a terse figure, to take the heat during negotiations with Brussels, as everybody had understood doing the bulk of negotiating an agreement would end up in political suicide. May bet on a strategy that relied on dividing the other 27 countries in the EU, something that didn't happen (in spite of our many disagreements on everything else). A deal was expected within 12 or 18 months. It didn't happen. May called for general elections at a time Labour was at a relative weak spot. It didn't happen. Labour actually gained seats compared to 2015, Corbyn looked cool outside of his hardcore fanbase for a while, and the Conservatives had to make a coalition with the Northern Ireland cunts (to be polite) of the DUP to stay in power with a razor-thin majority.
When May and the EU reached a prospective deal, it was torpedoed by the most Eurosceptic members of the Tories (supported by Johnson), by the DUP (because of the issue of Irish borders) and by Corbyn (who assumed that a political crisis would make Britain embrace Labour). After a series of defeats in the Commons, the prospective deal was rejected, May resigned and Johnson used this opportunity to become PM, rely on the Eurospectic side of his party, and promise a much better deal for Britain, even if no deal would also be fine anyway, totes, seriously, I ain't lying.
The Conservatives still had a few reasonable MPs, who either resigned or were expelled for not supporting BoJo. With no definite majority, Johnson called for another round of general election. The Labour Party and Corbyn offered something completely convoluted on Brexit that would take a lot of time to implement, provided it would clear the 15 steps required, while Johnson campaigned on "Get Brexit done". Guess what the British population favoured after three fucking years of negotiations.
Johnson and the EU agreed on the bulk of a deal (that was close to what May had negotiated but included a few new clauses on Northern Ireland or fishing). For the definitive deal, Johnson tried at some point to renege on his word on a few points (even if it's the foundation for international law), but managed after blowing a few deadlines to reach a compromise that allows him to brag about fishing rights, while he passed over some much more important issues (the idiot even wore a tie with a fish motif during the announcement, decades after he made false claims about Brussels trying to regulate the kippers, so a circle is now completed).
As respiratoryproblems said, the Leave vote in 2016 (and the question in the referendum) would cover a range going from "I can't stand being part of the European Union" to "Let's give them a good scare so they respect us more". The situation created by the Leave majority didn't make political leaders rise to the challenge. As despicable Johnson is, I don't think much more of Corbyn, who assumed that division inside the conservatives would be enough to give him the majority, while he had failed to give a clear and definite answer on how to address Brexit.
What's coming now is a bunch of complications for British trying to go to continental Europe or people from the EU trying to go to Britain. Despite claims to the contrary, Britain is still very tied to a lot of European norms. The difference is that until 2019, evolution of Europe was negotiated with Britain, who pushed for free market plus its own interests. Now, it will be negotiated by the remaining countries, with Britain deciding later whether they'll comply or take distance with it, at the risk of having new hurdles. UK mostly has less leverage than before, but at least they can raise their blue passport to show the world they're the epitome of civilization.
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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 14:16:00 GMT
Post by graucho on Dec 31, 2020 14:16:00 GMT
I don't have a lot to add, than what has previously been mentioned.
There is somewhat of a parallel with the US in that roughly the same percentage voted 'leave' as voted for trump vs the alternative opposition. This means that when people say stuff like 'fuck you British', or whatever, almost half the country did not vote for that outcome, but I guess like with Trump we will be similarly tarred with the same brush as those that voted otherwise. However, in the case of Brexit we can't vote it out in 4 or 5 years time. We are stuck with it.
I don't have a joint EU marriage and haven't made a claim on Irish Ancestry, but good for anyone who has.
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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 14:56:47 GMT
Post by Urethra Franklin on Dec 31, 2020 14:56:47 GMT
The most annoying thing about the whole debacle was idiot Corbyn. I am Labour through and through but Corbyn and his cronies didn't pick a side, stood on the fence and handed Brexit to Bojo.
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Brexit
Dec 31, 2020 17:04:43 GMT
Post by guffman on Dec 31, 2020 17:04:43 GMT
Another, more nefarious, side of this whole rancid bag of horse assholes known as Brexit is that Bore-us and his cronies are hoping that getting rid of the low-income-earning brown people is that it will further cripple the NHS (since many of them are nurses and such) and they can turn it into a for-profit industry like the U.S.
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Brexit
Jan 1, 2021 1:28:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by Potsie Hoofman on Jan 1, 2021 1:28:28 GMT
Chicken...wow. That made for some great reading. Well, the way you explained it, anyway. The subject of it sucks. But your poat gave me the background and that helps me understand it better.
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Brexit
Jan 6, 2021 23:34:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by aaa-appreciator on Jan 6, 2021 23:34:08 GMT
The most annoying thing about the whole debacle was idiot Corbyn. I am Labour through and through but Corbyn and his cronies didn't pick a side, stood on the fence and handed Brexit to Bojo. This.
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Brexit
Jan 8, 2021 17:14:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by grandaddy on Jan 8, 2021 17:14:27 GMT
As a member of Momentum I am going to disagree with the notion that we handed Brexit to Leave and sat on the fence. Labour left supported Remain. Fed up with Corbyn always being blamed for the reactionary attitudes that led to Brexit.
Will I now get banned for controversial first post ?!
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Brexit
Jan 8, 2021 17:43:40 GMT
Post by Sanjay Gupton on Jan 8, 2021 17:43:40 GMT
Will I now get banned for controversial first post ?! ✌✊ Probably not. We just learned what Brexit was the other day. Did you know English Muffins aren't from England? It's true.
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Brexit
Jan 8, 2021 18:41:04 GMT
Post by Brick Wall on Jan 8, 2021 18:41:04 GMT
Correctamundo. And did you know England swings like a pendulum do?
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Brexit
Jan 8, 2021 18:49:39 GMT
Post by braindead on Jan 8, 2021 18:49:39 GMT
Please forgive my ignorance on this topic. I'm hoping you can educate me. I never really picked up on what "Brexit" is all about. Great Britain is leaving the EU? If someone could give me the bottom line of what it means and why it's so bad, I'd appreciate it. God knows I've had my hands full with president chuckles and his group of dipshits. The U.K. is leaving the EU (Great Britain is the island of England, Scotland and Wales, U.K. is that island plus Northern Ireland). Broadly, the upshot is that a bunch of people who like to yell slogans like ‘Two world wars and one World Cup’ when they’re drunk or in a foreign country didn’t like the fact that free movement of people (one of the central tenets of the EU) meant that there were scant barriers to people from other EU countries coming over here to live. Added to that a perpetual stream of right-wing journalism informing them that the EU was making rules and laws that affected them adversely led to an underlying (and predominantly xenophobic) mindset of sovereignty being threatened, hence the vote to leave. The fact that the U.K. received pretty much the highest level of financial subsidy from the EU and was one of its most powerful members, as well as the architect of most of its laws gets conveniently overlooked by stupid people who see it as Germany trying to keep the U.K. under its control, and still bear a grudge for a war that ended 75 years ago (I’m not making this up). There were people who claimed they were not voting for reasons of anti-immigration (like my naive Dad who claimed he didn’t like bureaucrats in another country making rules for him, or my brother who claimed he voted to leave as a protest vote against the ‘political elite’, another narrative variation in the city vs country rivalry that got amplified while this was going on), but most voted because they are flat-out racist. Even when a far-right nut job shot a left-wing politician dead in broad daylight a week before the vote while yelling slogans about keeping Britain great or some shit, they still won the vote to Leave. The problem is that no one exactly defined what ‘leaving’ meant. It’s like saying you’re voting for red over green, but no one has agreed on what shade of red you want. Leaving could have meant rescinding membership of the EU but continued membership of stuff like a customs union to allow movement of goods in a trading bloc, the trade off being that the U.K. would remain subject to EU legal jurisdiction. But the hard-right faction backing Brexit applied pressure on the establishment to ditch everything so that the U.K. became an independent nation with its own trade deals and independence from any EU influence, and despite very vocal opposition from the public and a lot of MPs they essentially got their way. As to why it’s all happening now, the U.K. formally left the EU on Jan 31st (delayed from the original departure date of 29th March 2019). But the last eleven months up to today have kept the U.K. under EU rules as part of a transition period while a new trade and securities deal was struck. The deal is monumentally shit, and still requires businesses to make substantial changes to their trade with the EU, and will increase costs to small business as well as further tariffs on incoming goods and will damage the economy. However, it’s better than the alternative which was to trade with the EU on WTO terms (which would levy additional tariffs on export and import and absolutely decimate the U.K. economy as well as creating job losses in the EU side in areas like car manufacture which has strong ties to the U.K.). Amazingly, some of the far-right were actively lobbying for this outcome and the ‘no deal’ threat was used as a bargaining tool by Boris Johnson during negotiations. There’s also the issue of the border between Ireland (in the EU) and Northern Ireland (not in the EU now), which is a whole other headache that at it’s peak saw the potential return of checkpoints and stuff that had been removed once the peace process was completed in the 90s. Yeah, the government was more concerned about getting Brexit competed than keeping a fragile peace treaty. So, in a nutshell, the English government (dragging Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with them despite opposition) has given up its position of power in an organisation designed to peacefully unite countries, and deliberately made it difficult to trade or live or work with those countries all because some narrow-minded pricks thought there were too many foreigners not speaking English. It’s absolutely fucking shameful. And what a complete and utter shit show this has become. Being “governed” by a bunch of halfwitted cunts,spivs,shysters,self-serving wankers, thieves, fuck it my piss is boiling now.
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Brexit
Jan 23, 2021 3:32:43 GMT
Post by FabGear Prophylactic on Jan 23, 2021 3:32:43 GMT
The really damning part has been the motivation behind it. If it were just about a major trading relationship -- a dry but sensitive subject for Canadians too -- well, okay, who cares. But it never seemed to be very much about launching some wonderful new trade environment, whatever that is. Confirmed by how unprepared and unhappy Brits appear to be during these early days of the predictable, boring grind of being a "third-party country".
Brexit seems founded on themes that genuinely seem insane. And one that just keeps popping up: the need to relaunch the Empire, and the underlying assumption that it would be i) easy to do and ii) popular overseas with us *CANZUK* colonials. Wut? Is this really *a thing* over there? The UK government is horribad, worse than Trump, but is it so fucking mad that this is actually a policy objective?
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Brexit
Sept 9, 2022 19:11:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by marshall on Sept 9, 2022 19:11:49 GMT
I really detest the remoaners. The reason why the majority voted to leave the EU was because too many europeans were coming into Britain working in farms/factories for less than minimum wage they were not paying a penny in tax it got to the stage 30 odd Roms and Poles were living in houses, they were sleeping on the floor like sardines in a can. The authorities did not know anything about them and the UK had a huge problem with human trafficking (this free movement of people opened a can of worms) Many were scrounging benefits costing us a fortune. You cannot have a open door policy leting any Tom, Dick and Harry enter you country. I am proud Englishman not a Brit.
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