Driver 8/Spencer R loves/hates Ebony/Ivory

EBONY AND IVORY - Paul McCartney with Stevie Wonder: Both of these men are musical giants, but the conventional wisdom is correct: this particular tune is really, really lame. D

Others diss it because it's a really trite look at a really complicated subject.

I couldn't agree more that Paul's duet with Michael Jackson on "Say, Say, Say" is the single biggest career mistake he ever made. Whatever short-term commercial benefit Paul gained from duetting with the biggest pop star of the moment has been far outweighed by the hit to his "rock" credibility that Paul took at the time - a hit that has only gotten worse over the years, as Michael Jackson's public image has gone from weird to bizarre to freak show to child molester (I don't want to get into a side debate as to whether Jackson is or is not in fact a child molester, but that is undeniably the public perception these days). While I think that Paul has made a lot of great music since "Say, Say, Say," I can see how some "rock" fans tuned him out then and have never given him another chance. I can actually listen to and enjoy the often-criticized "Ebony and Ivory," but I never listen to "Say, Say, Say."

"Pipes of Peace," "So Bad," "Sweetest Little Show," and "Average Person" would have made either a strong EP or strong additions to Tug of War in place of the Carl Perkins and Stevie Wonder duets. It's not just the Michael Jackson duet that was flawed - all of Paul's celebrity duets from this era seem a little bit forced and show-bizzy. "Ebony and Ivory" comes the closest to working, but it probably would have been better served as a stand-alone single or a contribution to a We Are the World-style charity album than as an album track.

"Ebony and Ivory" does have a cliched lyric, but, on a purely musical level, I enjoy it.

Getting back to the topic at hand, Michael Jackson, I'd nominate "Say, Say, Say" as Macca's greatest crime against music. I have recently come to view "Ebony and Ivory" as actually not such a bad song.

Everybody makes fun of "Ebony and Ivory," but I find Paul's admiration of Stevie Wonder's talents to be quite touching. As far back as Red Rose Speedway he placed a Braille message on the album cover for Stevie.

I think he learned his lesson from the "Ebony and Ivory" and "Say, Say, Say" debacles. I don't necessarily think that those songs are so terrible, but, as has been discussed here many times, they did his career more harm than good, and I don't think he will repeat that mistake.

Maybe Stipe and R.E.M. were heartfelt and sincere when they recorded "Stand," and, later, "Shiny Happy People," but those songs really cost them a large portion of their original fanbase, who didn't quite know what to make of them. In that regard, they were sort of the "Ebony and Ivory" and "Say, Say, Say" of R.E.M.'s career - huge hits that actually ended up damaging their reputation.

Maccafan, believe me, I'm on your side when it comes to Macca, and I certainly do appreciate your devotion to the man and his work, but "Ebony and Ivory" and "Say, Say, Say" did hurt his career with rock fans. A lot of fair weather fans did fly the coop as a result of those records, and some of them never came back.

On a purely personal note, after all these years, I can take or leave "Say Say Say," but I think that "Ebony and Ivory" is pretty little song with a positive message that is nothing to be ashamed of.

"Ebony and Ivory" is a pretty good song. Of all the early 80s duets, "Say Say Say" is probably the one that I find the most cringeworthy (although I actually sort of like "The Girl Is Mine" ).

"Silly Love Songs" holds it own with the best of anything that Sir Bad Dye Job ever recorded. "Ebony and Ivory" doesn't, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

I like "Ebony and Ivory." The mistake here, I think, was not releasing it as a stand-alone single on the model of "Another Day," "Junior's Farm," "Goodnight Tonight," etc. Stevie Wonder is obviously as much of a giant in his genre of popular music as McCartney is in his, and, unlike "What's That You're Doing," this duet works as a meeting of two major talents. But I just think a duet single like this is sort of gimmicky by its very nature, and works best as a stand-alone single, not as an album track. I'm thinking of other examples of the genre such as David Bowie and Mick Jagger's "Dancing in the Street" or David Bowie and Queen's "Under Pressure," which, if I'm not mistaken, was released as a stand-alone 45 well before its eventual inclusion on Queen's Hot Space. Even though I'm not crazy about "Here Today," I think it would have made a far better album closer for this album than "Ebony and Ivory." "Wanderlust" would have also worked in that slot, as would "Pipes of Peace" if you do decide to play the "let's combine the two albums" game.

How about these two really unfortunate duets, though?

"Ebony and Ivory"
"The Girl Is Mine"

What's unfortunate about either of these songs? I quite like both.

"Ebony and Ivory" is a well-written, catchy tune with a positive message from two of popular music's all time giants. Yes, what a shock that millions of people enjoyed it.

As someone noted above, the fundamental root issue that drives these never-ending assaults on Paul from rock "fans" is that a large portion of his music deviates from the angsty, confessional, listen-to-me-sing-about-my-pain model that is the default setting of post-'68 rock music.

They call it shark-jumping pop music, they call it saccharine, they call it granny music, whatever - all of these derogatory terms are different ways of saying the same thing: much of Paul's music doesn't follow the John Lennon/Roger Waters/Kurt Cobain "I hate Mommy and Daddy, and I'm still angry about them today" default setting for "credible" rock songwriting.

"Ebony & Ivory" is a "monstrosity"? I'll never understand the vitriol that that song attracts. Call me sappy and lightweight, I guess, but I enjoy "Ebony and Ivory" and its catchy tune and positive message a lot more than, say, "Woman Is the N-Word of the World." I guess those two songs sum up a lot of the differences between the two main songwriters of the Beatles, and I know whose side I come down on.

When people bash U2's How To Dismantle an Atomic Bomb for example, they almost always tend to make some snarky comment about "the song in the iTunes commercial" ("Vertigo"), and never even mention what I consider to be some of the strong deep tracks on the album such as "One Step Closer." Because most people who have made up their mind that they don't like an artist don't buy each new album from that artist and listen to it in its entirety, or, if they do listen to the entire album, they are likely, as you point out, to listen to it only once or twice and not allow it time to sink in. I'm sure there are people who have bought every new McCartney album as it came out, and don't like any of them, but most of the naysayers in this thread seem to be picking on the same old targets: "Silly Love Songs," "Ebony and Ivory," Paul's duets with Michael Jackson, etc. Even if, for the sake of argument, one accepts that "Ebony and Ivory" is a bad song, it happened thirty years ago. I'm not sure why people can't let it go and enjoy some of the very strong music (in my opinion) that Paul has released over the past decade, but I guess "Ebony and Ivory" is going to be his cross to bear for the rest of his life (even though I personally enjoy the song).

Just like the assertion that "Ebony and Ivory" is a "monstrosity," the assertion that "My Love" "makes me want to retch" is so absurd and over-the-top that it forces me to conclude that there is some deeper, non-musical reason for the vitriol that is directed at Paul. I suspect that, at its root, that reason is that Paul is perceived as "soft," and as a "wimp," and that those who are insecure in their own manhood make statements about Paul's music making them want "to retch" in an effort to establish that they are not wimps.

Wild Life is up there with "Ebony and Ivory" as one of the bigger albatrosses around Paul's neck.

In the latest Paul McCartney thread, there has been the usual outpouring of hate for Paul's "Ebony and Ivory," in part, I think because of cynicism towards any song that expresses a positive message like that song does.

McCartney is also in the National Treasure phase of his career, but, when he puts out a great late-career album like Chaos and Creation, it is largely ignored outside the hardcore cult of McCartney fans. No five-star MOJO reviews for Paul these days. I think a lot of this just stems back to perceptions that were set in stone in the 60s - Bob is cool, and Paul is not, and those perceptions haven't changed in the meantime (Neither Dylan, nor anyone else, is ever going to write "Roll On Paul"). Bob was able to make a series of weak albums in the 80s and bounce back in the 90s, because he had that reservoir of cool points built up in the 60s, whereas Paul is still not forgiven for "Ebony and Ivory," and never will be, while Empire Burlesque and "Wiggle Wiggle" are long since forgotten.

Agreed. "Ebony and Ivory" is a good example of a song on this topic that has the "why can't we get along?" message, minus the hot-button issue of the Confederate flag symbol, and that song is routinely lambasted as trite, simplistic, an embarrassment in McCartney's career, etc.

My final take on this is that I believe that Paisley's heart was in the right place (as was L.L. Cool J's), but the execution was clumsy, the song is not really a good song as a song, i.e., musically as opposed to the lyrical content, and the Confederate flag symbol is a lightning rod, even though a bunch of Brad's other recent songs, such as "American Saturday Night," "Welcome To the Future," and "Southern Comfort Zone," have seen Brad nudging the country genre in a more progressive, multi-cultural direction than the "I'm proud to be a redneck" stereotypes that surround the genre. Brad is out there giving interviews saying that he intended to start a conversation, and maybe one of the results of the conversation he started will be that he will re-think what the Stars and Bars symbol and "southern pride" mean to him, although, as I said above, if you're familiar with his entire catalog, his take on those issues has been more nuanced than "Accidental Racist" would suggest.

"Ebony and Ivory" is like Paul's version of "All You Need Is Love," i.e., a somewhat trite plea for harmony that no one can really disagree with, wrapped up in a cutesy-pie production.

As for "Ebony and Ivory," I think the hyper-fans here probably over-state whatever damage it did to Paul's reputation. I think the average music fan, i.e., the listener who isn't super-hung up on notions of "rock credibility" and "authenticity," doesn't care that Paul did duets with Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson, and actually probably enjoys those songs. Or has simply forgotten about them. But, to people like my mom, those songs are certainly not albatrosses around Paul's neck.

I finally got around to listening to this. While I have reservations about the lyrical content of a lot of West's music, My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy demonstrated a ton of musical and production talent in the hip-hop/rap genre, I thought. So I don't think West is a collaborator who is necessarily somehow "beneath" Paul, but this song veers perilously close to MOR schlock, in my opinion, right down to the sappy "up with people" vibe of the lyric. It's like "Ebony and Ivory" all over again, but at least that had a decent tune.

Whether or not the lyric of “Ebony and Ivory” is corny - and, as you note, it’s hardly any cornier than “All You Need Is Love” - it’s predictably a fantastic tune with a typically interesting middle eight from our hero.

I have yet to see any persuasive explanation of why the message of “Ebony and Ivory” is any “cheesier” (admittedly a pretty vague term: what exactly does “cheesy” mean, anyway, other than “something I don’t like, but can’t articulate exactly why I don’t like it”?) than that of “All You Need Is Love,” “Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth),” or “Imagine”.” “Imagine all the people / sharing all the world,” is there a more kindergarten kum ba yah sentiment than that?