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Post by kingdiamond on Jan 20, 2024 14:51:38 GMT
We deserve better than a Trump V Biden election again... Strong disagree. Fair enough. How so?
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Post by gobshite on Jan 20, 2024 15:19:02 GMT
Not my place to speak for Mediocrates, but I think "We deserve better" is maybe the potentially controversial part? (though I believe the people do deserve better than what the parties served up in 2020 and the inevitable rematch)
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Post by Mediocrates on Jan 20, 2024 15:40:15 GMT
We get what we deserve - I say that not as you and I chatting here, but as a collective nation. This is the kind of leadership you get when an entire nation doesn't even bother to engage in the electoral process outside of a few of the highest-profile elections.
Ultimately, the fault is not with Biden or Trump, it is us. We suck. If we (again, not just you and I) should ever attempt to not suck so bad as a nation, we will see progress. We will elect more decent people.
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Post by speedracer on Jan 20, 2024 17:55:18 GMT
We get what we deserve - I say that not as you and I chatting here, but as a collective nation. This is the kind of leadership you get when an entire nation doesn't even bother to engage in the electoral process outside of a few of the highest-profile elections. Ultimately, the fault is not with Biden or Trump, it is us. We suck. If we (again, not just you and I) should ever attempt to not suck so bad as a nation, we will see progress. We will elect more decent people. Yes,this situation was a long time coming,and is a mirror of national character. I don't see why Biden catches so much grief. Ok, so he is short on charisma but he is at least doing the job of presidency of a democracy, not a fascist asshole destroying the government. Trump is openly leading a Nazi movement, he has zero interest in and knows nothing about the checks and balances of democracy.
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hoffa_nagila
Better than Steve
Posts: 6,044
Member is Online
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Post by hoffa_nagila on Jan 20, 2024 18:03:32 GMT
And yet... I disagree. Our leaders had, ya know, LEAD us to this point. You wouldn't blame the wife when her husband beats the shit out of her. And it's incredibly reductive to blame the people for the state of the nation. They are lied to, manipulated, segregated, pitted against one another. Education and information streams are eroded beyond critical levels. All by design.
We aren't immune to the propaganda. Just as the conservative cultists see us as they/them girl penis lovers grooming the children and applauding the dark folk for raping and pillaging, so too are we getting a distorted view too. Do you really think they all are gun-fucking, education hating, eschatological cultists awaiting the coming of the ChristTrump to bring forth the end times (and kill the pesky immigrants and muslims too)? I'm NOT pulling a "both sides" schtick. But it's all bullshit. We're all being unleashed on each other. And dammit, it works. Rather than working towards the common good, we are at each others throats. Fuck your free healthcare, fuck your gay marriages, income disparity, inflation, whatever! Keep passing the buck around to anyone but the fuckers who ACTUALLY decide these things.
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Post by speedracer on Jan 20, 2024 18:23:12 GMT
And yet... I disagree. Our leaders had, ya know, LEAD us to this point. You wouldn't blame the wife when her husband beats the shit out of her. And it's incredibly reductive to blame the people for the state of the nation. They are lied to, manipulated, segregated, pitted against one another. Education and information streams are eroded beyond critical levels. All by design. We aren't immune to the propaganda. Just as the conservative cultists see us as they/them girl penis lovers grooming the children and applauding the dark folk for raping and pillaging, so too are we getting a distorted view too. Do you really think they all are gun-fucking, education hating, eschatological cultists awaiting the coming of the ChristTrump to bring forth the end times (and kill the pesky immigrants and muslims too)? I'm NOT pulling a "both sides" schtick. But it's all bullshit. We're all being unleashed on each other. And dammit, it works. Rather than working towards the common good, we are at each others throats. Fuck your free healthcare, fuck your gay marriages, income disparity, inflation, whatever! Keep passing the buck around to anyone but the fuckers who ACTUALLY decide these things. Yeah I get that, how we are pawns in the game. Still, here is the difference - just now you made a well thought out and inclusive point that gives us all room to breathe. The redhats have zero interest in any of that kind of dialog. Zero. I live in the rural West, believe me the Trump crowd don't want anything to do with negotiation. They want to tear down the whole country and set up a fascist Christian dictatorship. Trump wins debates by not showing up. That is hostile warlike behaviour I don't know how else to put it, the man is a menace.
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Post by mudflapslim on Jan 20, 2024 18:40:30 GMT
We get what we deserve - I say that not as you and I chatting here, but as a collective nation. This is the kind of leadership you get when an entire nation doesn't even bother to engage in the electoral process outside of a few of the highest-profile elections. Ultimately, the fault is not with Biden or Trump, it is us. We suck. If we (again, not just you and I) should ever attempt to not suck so bad as a nation, we will see progress. We will elect more decent people. Yes,this situation was a long time coming,and is a mirror of national character. I don't see why Biden catches so much grief. Ok, so he is short on charisma but he is at least doing the job of presidency of a democracy, not a fascist asshole destroying the government. Trump is openly leading a Nazi movement, he has zero interest in and knows nothing about the checks and balances of democracy. Republicans and Democrats are a duopoly just like Coke and Pepsi. They're pretty fucking similar but fans of either think it's great and the other sucks. They're both bad for you. Zelensky and Putin had a peace deal worked out a month after Russia invaded, but Biden and NATO made Zelensky back out. How many thousands of Ukrainian and Russians have been needlessly killed since then? Sending billions upon billions of dollars to keep up the slaughter is a bipartisan thing, as is funding the genocide in Gaza. Biden is a fascist asshole destroying the WORLD, who idiots love and give a total pass to for his crimes against humanity because he beat Trump.
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hoffa_nagila
Better than Steve
Posts: 6,044
Member is Online
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Post by hoffa_nagila on Jan 20, 2024 18:40:41 GMT
And yet... I disagree. Our leaders had, ya know, LEAD us to this point. You wouldn't blame the wife when her husband beats the shit out of her. And it's incredibly reductive to blame the people for the state of the nation. They are lied to, manipulated, segregated, pitted against one another. Education and information streams are eroded beyond critical levels. All by design. We aren't immune to the propaganda. Just as the conservative cultists see us as they/them girl penis lovers grooming the children and applauding the dark folk for raping and pillaging, so too are we getting a distorted view too. Do you really think they all are gun-fucking, education hating, eschatological cultists awaiting the coming of the ChristTrump to bring forth the end times (and kill the pesky immigrants and muslims too)? I'm NOT pulling a "both sides" schtick. But it's all bullshit. We're all being unleashed on each other. And dammit, it works. Rather than working towards the common good, we are at each others throats. Fuck your free healthcare, fuck your gay marriages, income disparity, inflation, whatever! Keep passing the buck around to anyone but the fuckers who ACTUALLY decide these things. Yeah I get that, how we are pawns in the game. Still, here is the difference - just now you made a well thought out and inclusive point that gives us all room to breathe. The redhats have zero interest in any of that kind of dialog. Zero. I live in the rural West, believe me the Trump crowd don't want anything to do with negotiation. They want to tear down the whole country and set up a fascist Christian dictatorship. Trump wins debates by not showing up. That is hostile warlike behaviour I don't know how else to put it, the man is a menace. And if that was his ENTIRE base I'd agree. But that's only a percentage of his supporters. There are many different groups and categories that buy into what he's selling, whatever that is. So many disillusioned, ex-progressives who think he is the solution. He's a con man and they were conned. I can't let the people off the hook entirely but at what point can we just throw our hands up and say "shit, we've been duped. Year after year, election after election, cause after cause."
If they were truly the "bad guys" they would be the ones making good off of all this insanity. But they aren't. They are just as poor, unstable, insecure, and fucked as the rest of us, if not worse off. So I have to point the blame at those who are sitting pretty and gaining from the dismemberment of the union.
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Post by Potsie Hoofman on Jan 20, 2024 18:41:14 GMT
Good points all around. The Biden administration needs a better PR firm, get the positives out there better.
The problem (as speedracer pointed out) is that they don't want negotiations. Look, my brothers and sister and I haven't spoken to our right wing Trump supporting mother in four years. She has chosen her hateful politics over her own children; she sees nothing wrong with her racist words and actions.
I can't remember the last time I voted FOR someone instead of AGAINST the other guy. Maybe Obama in 2008.
I just cannot figure out that, on Betty White's green earth, how we wound up with out choices this year. Do I vote for an 82 year old man who doesn't know where he is half the time? Or allow the 78 year old man who thinks it's 1933 Germany to win? What in the actual fuck...
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Post by speedracer on Jan 20, 2024 18:56:21 GMT
I was hoping Liz Cheney would run. She has the right stuff, I would vote for her in a heartbeat. Someone like her, a Republican who knows and values government, could save the Republican Party from becoming the Trump Reich. Trump has pulled the Republicans so far right that moderates are now viewed as extreme left.
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Post by kingdiamond on Jan 20, 2024 19:46:33 GMT
I can't remember the last time I voted FOR someone instead of AGAINST the other guy. Maybe Obama in 2008. That's a shame and that's not how a democracy ought to work. You should be able to vote your conscience instead of voting for the lessor of two evils. I'm done with that mindset. I have to be. I didn't sleep well under Trump and I don't sleep well under Biden. This Gaza thing has me disturbed to my core and I can't possibly vote for more bloodshed for fear that Trump will get in office and do much the same.
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Post by mudflapslim on Jan 20, 2024 20:09:54 GMT
I was hoping Liz Cheney would run. She has the right stuff, I would vote for her in a heartbeat. Someone like her, a Republican who knows and values government, could save the Republican Party from becoming the Trump Reich. Trump has pulled the Republicans so far right that moderates are now viewed as extreme left. Her father and Bush were a million times worse than Trump, and the apple didn't fall far from the tree. The enemy of your enemy isn't necessarily your friend.
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Post by gobshite on Jan 20, 2024 20:15:00 GMT
The Bush/Cheney wing giving the world reason to hate the USA, and the MAGAts working to keep Americans all hating each other. Tough call
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Post by GeddyLeePierce on Jan 20, 2024 22:12:37 GMT
Nobody “loves” Biden. And no one has ever been worse than Trump.
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Post by Disgraced Ex-Prez Agent Orange on Jan 20, 2024 22:28:04 GMT
Liz Cheney is right about Donald Trump and wrong about pretty much everything else.
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